Indented Kraft Paper vs. Newspaper?

[CinderellaBoy]

I have cypress in my Burm and Retic enclosures, works great. When it comes time to clean up the crap out comes the 6 hp shop vac, and all of it goes, crap, cypress and anything else in the way. I get 4 cubic foot bags of cypress for 1.78 at Lowes so I just change it at will, no worries, but to each his own.

[abi21491]

Kraft paper works, I know a couple blood python people who use it and love it. I'd say go for it

[Donnie_K]

I'd definately stay away from cypress mulch or peat moss with any terrestrial snakes... especially one that goes to the bathroom as much as a large retic.

Alot of terrestrial species do great on cypress, i understand burms and retics are large, but besides having to clean up a massive dump, why would you stay away from cypress or moss?  Just curious, D!

I can't say what anyone else should or shouldn't do, but the question was why do I stay away from it. Well there's alot of reasons. 1 once it dries, it sucks the humidity out of the air. I know you don't mind misting your cages every day, but I'm pretty happy never having to mist mine... ever. 2 There's a risk of the snake ingesting it with their meal and getting impacted, possibly costing you surgery, or even a dead snake. 3 it's a breeding ground for bacteria... really increases the risk of all kinds of infections and complications. 4 it's not as easy to clean as "roll it up, pull it out, whipe it down". 5 if you happen to have a mite problem come up... you just gave them another place to colonize. 6 when you're using belly heat (which IMO is the absolute best way to go for terrestrial snakes for a number of reasons) it doesn't heat through that as well. 7 the snake just pushes it out of the way and lays on the bare floor of the cage, so might as well not have any bedding that way right? the list goes on and on... I can think of a ton of reasons NOT to use it... and not one valid reason TO use it. I hear people say "well it helps with humidity"... no it doesn't, not past that first night when it dries, then you have to wet it down again or your humidity is about 15 percent. and others say "it looks more natural"... again, my animals don't seem stimulated by that stuff at all... come up here and take reign outside and try to lay her down in the grass... you'll see what I mean (and I just can't imagine the jungle floors in indonesia being covered with cypress mulch). And dude, don't think I would knock it before I tried it. I didn't start using paper til 2007 and I've been keeping snakes since 1986. Here's a couple pics from when I used to breed boas...








I know very well the differences from my own experiences, In many different types of cages, and I won't EVER go back to any kind of mulch or "substrate" for any terrestrial snake aside from something like a kenyan sand boa. Just my Honest Opinion.

[juddb]

I'd definately stay away from cypress mulch or peat moss with any terrestrial snakes... especially one that goes to the bathroom as much as a large retic.

Alot of terrestrial species do great on cypress, i understand burms and retics are large, but besides having to clean up a massive dump, why would you stay away from cypress or moss?  Just curious, D!

I can't say what anyone else should or shouldn't do, but the question was why do I stay away from it. Well there's alot of reasons. 1 once it dries, it sucks the humidity out of the air. I know you don't mind misting your cages every day, but I'm pretty happy never having to mist mine... ever. 2 There's a risk of the snake ingesting it with their meal and getting impacted, possibly costing you surgery, or even a dead snake. 3 it's a breeding ground for bacteria... really increases the risk of all kinds of infections and complications. 4 it's not as easy to clean as "roll it up, pull it out, whipe it down". 5 if you happen to have a mite problem come up... you just gave them another place to colonize. 6 when you're using belly heat (which IMO is the absolute best way to go for terrestrial snakes for a number of reasons) it doesn't heat through that as well. 7 the snake just pushes it out of the way and lays on the bare floor of the cage, so might as well not have any bedding that way right? the list goes on and on... I can think of a ton of reasons NOT to use it... and not one valid reason TO use it. I hear people say "well it helps with humidity"... no it doesn't, not past that first night when it dries, then you have to wet it down again or your humidity is about 15 percent. and others say "it looks more natural"... again, my animals don't seem stimulated by that stuff at all... come up here and take reign outside and try to lay her down in the grass... you'll see what I mean (and I just can't imagine the jungle floors in indonesia being covered with cypress mulch). And dude, don't think I would knock it before I tried it. I didn't start using paper til 2007 and I've been keeping snakes since 1986. Here's a couple pics from when I used to breed boas...








I know very well the differences from my own experiences, In many different types of cages, and I won't EVER go back to any kind of mulch or "substrate" for any terrestrial snake aside from something like a kenyan sand boa. Just my Honest Opinion.

Thats cool donnie, what works for some doesnt work for others, im with ya man.  For the record i dont mist my snakes or the substrate daily, once or twice a month tops, a night drop to dew point temp provides more than enough humidity.  I imagine it would work if you were able to maintain bigger enclosure's for these giant snakes, but that would get expensive and isnt practical when you have tons of them.  Personally i use a mixture of cypress mulch, top soil, moss and other organic material and i have 0 problems, i know alot of keepers who love cypress among other types of mulch/soil substrate for thier terrestrial boids, but not burms/retics. I would love to see a large enclosure using this type of bedding with a bigger foot print for the animal to move around in, using large heat panels etc.   All the problems you listed are easlily prevented, except maybe the snake pushing it out of the way to sit on the bare floor, but even then i imagine since they are ambush predators they would do the same in thier home of origin i.e. push soil and leaf litter around to sit under and wait for potential prey etc...  Anyway sorry to hijack the thread folks. 

[resonance77]

I'm with you, Donny.

I like my modern conveniences. I prefer my comfy bed in my climate controlled house to living in the wild.

I used to use mulch up until about 2002, then I switched to outdoor carpet for a short time. When I went to paper, I never looked back.

As far as the craft paper goes, I've never tried that particular stuff. I do newspaper and paper towel mostly. I was looking at the contractors paper the other day at the home improvement store. I might pick up a roll. 

[Donnie_K]

Judd: Next time I go visit my pops I'll get you some pics. He's still got a 21 footer in a walk in closet on mulch with lamps. And a couple others too. That's just the way they did things in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. while radiant heat panels are decent, I personally think belly heat is much better for an animals digestion, and allows them to raise their body temps while still letting the cool side to drop to around 77 degrees. As far as the space, I've seen both sides of that coin too, and honestly the animals I have here in these 6 x 3's seem a whole lot more comfortable than those ones in the walk in closets.

resonance: yeah, I did the indoor/outdoor carpet thing too. I liked it better than the mulch but still when it got wet it was pretty bad, and if it's there for a few hours before you wake up or get home from work, it'll stink up your whole house... lol. I love the contractors paper, but sometimes it can be a little tedious to cut to fit if you have a lot of cages. but I haven't found anything I like better yet, lol.

[juddb]

Judd: Next time I go visit my pops I'll get you some pics. He's still got a 21 footer in a walk in closet on mulch with lamps. And a couple others too. That's just the way they did things in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. while radiant heat panels are decent, I personally think belly heat is much better for an animals digestion, and allows them to raise their body temps while still letting the cool side to drop to around 77 degrees. As far as the space, I've seen both sides of that coin too, and honestly the animals I have here in these 6 x 3's seem a whole lot more comfortable than those ones in the walk in closets.

resonance: yeah, I did the indoor/outdoor carpet thing too. I liked it better than the mulch but still when it got wet it was pretty bad, and if it's there for a few hours before you wake up or get home from work, it'll stink up your whole house... lol. I love the contractors paper, but sometimes it can be a little tedious to cut to fit if you have a lot of cages. but I haven't found anything I like better yet, lol.

  Heat panels are the future of reptile heating , in my opinion its not about the surface temp for the snake's belly  its about the animal's core temperature, its alot easier to do and safer with heat panels.  But again, thats my opinion, im sure the results are the same either way.

[CinderellaBoy]

RHPs are the most accurate way of duplicating natural heat sources.

[Donnie_K]

well, like I said, I like to let them have a bit cooler of a cool side than most people do. Don't get me wrong, radiant heat panels are great, and if I ever have arboreal snakes, that's all I would use. But I think an animal has alot more control over thermoregulation when they can lay in direct contact with whatever temperature they desire. just like if you lay a pot of water on your electric stove. It heats up and boils, regardless of air temp. Here it depends on the species though. I find my retics are quite happy to take advantage of that cool side down in the high 70's. This is definately a good topic for another thread! Didn't mean to hijack this one... lol, but yeah, I've tried em all and I will stick with belly heat for my terrestrials, which just adds one more reason to a long list of reasons (for me anyway) not to use "substrate".

CinderellaBoy beat me to the post... lol

As far as natural heat sources... well, I gave up on the natural thing a long time ago. And like I said, if we try to relate these things to ourselves, I for one definately prefer my furnace and air conditioner over a fire in a cave or waving a leaf at my face....

Again, not knocking radiant heat panels by any means. Just been there, done that, and I see better results as far as growth, reproduction, and stress levels with belly heat in my animals.

[juddb]

well, like I said, I like to let them have a bit cooler of a cool side than most people do. Don't get me wrong, radiant heat panels are great, and if I ever have arboreal snakes, that's all I would use. But I think an animal has alot more control over thermoregulation when they can lay in direct contact with whatever temperature they desire. just like if you lay a pot of water on your electric stove. It heats up and boils, regardless of air temp. Here it depends on the species though. I find my retics are quite happy to take advantage of that cool side down in the high 70's. This is definately a good topic for another thread! Didn't mean to hijack this one... lol, but yeah, I've tried em all and I will stick with belly heat for my terrestrials, which just adds one more reason to a long list of reasons (for me anyway) not to use "substrate".

CinderellaBoy beat me to the post... lol

As far as natural heat sources... well, I gave up on the natural thing a long time ago. And like I said, if we try to relate these things to ourselves, I for one definately prefer my furnace and air conditioner over a fire in a cave or waving a leaf at my face....

Again, not knocking radiant heat panels by any means. Just been there, done that, and I see better results as far as growth, reproduction, and stress levels with belly heat in my animals.

My last post on this thread, just like donnie said.  Im sorry for hijacking.  But i have to disagree with you my man, with heat panels you can see a high of 90 and a low of 60 if you wanted to in any cage,  arboreal or not.  Also, with the whole "natural" thing, im with you man, its impossible to recreate nature for these guys, but why not offer them a richer life than a sterile cube, i just cant understand why thats a concept we should avoid.  But like you said, this is a whole other topic.